This cataclysmic flood was tentatively linked to the biblical story
of Noah by geologists William Ryan and Walter Pitman of Columbia University
in their 1997 book "Noah's Flood." Their theory of a great flood in the
Black Sea was based on their discovery of a drowned landscape as seen
in seismic profiles and sediment cores.
"This is an incredible find," an excited Ballard said in a telephone
call from the expedition ship to Terry Garcia, executive vice president
of Mission Programs for the National Geographic Society. "Artifacts at
the site are clearly well preserved, with carved wooden beams, wooden
branches and stone tools collapsed amongst the mud matrix of the structure."
The site is located 311 feet (95 meters) below sea level, and the extraordinary
state of preservation of the wood and other organic materials of such
great age is most likely due to the site's proximity to the Black Sea's
deeper, oxygen-free waters.
"We discovered this structure very early into the expedition and we
are now expanding our search into a larger area. We are going into the
river valley in which we believe more people lived and we expect to make
further discoveries.
"This is a work in progress. It is critical to know the exact era of
the people who lived there, and to that end we hope to recover artifacts
and wood for carbon dating so we can figure out what sort of people lived
there and the nature of their tools," said Ballard.
Fredrik Hiebert, chief archaeologist for the project from the University
of Pennsylvania, said from the ship, "This find represents the first concrete
evidence for the occupation of the Black Sea coast prior to its flooding.
This is a major discovery that will begin to rewrite the history of cultures
in this key area between Europe, Asia and the ancient Middle East."
Turkey's General Directorate of Monuments and Museums is involved in
the expedition and has a representative on board the research vessel.
General Director of Monuments and Museums Dr. Alpay Pasinli says Turkey
is open to continued cooperation in mapping the site, which is within
that country's coastal waters.
Precise mapping and photodocumentation of the structure will continue
during the five-week expedition.
Scientists theorize that the Black Sea was a freshwater lake until it
was flooded by the Mediterranean Sea about 7,000 years ago. Ryan and Pitman's
research showed that today's Black Sea was transformed when melting glaciers
raised the level of the Mediterranean Sea, causing water to break its
way through the strip of land separating the Mediterranean Sea from the
smaller freshwater lake.
According to Ryan and Pitman, the resulting cascade, many times the
height and volume of Niagara Falls, carved out of solid rock the narrow
channel now known as the Bosporus, the strait that separates the Mediterranean
Sea from the Black Sea.
The turbulent water pouring into the Black Sea would have widened the
surface of the sea by as much as a mile a day, submerging the original
shoreline and any settlements under hundreds of feet of salt water.
A team from National Geographic News is on the expedition vessel and
will file regular updates. These will air on National Geographic EXPLORER
on CNBC starting Sunday, Sept. 17, and on the National Geographic Channel
outside the United States. Dispatches are being posted on the Web at nationalgeographic.com.
When the expedition is over, the complete story of the discovery will
be told in a one-hour National Geographic SPECIAL on PBS and in 110 countries
around the world on the National Geographic Channel. The "National Geographic
Today" show will air in-depth reports and updates on the expedition and
follow-up research when the Channel launches in the United States in January
2001. National Geographic magazine will publish a first-person account
by Bob Ballard of the expedition. Ballard is also authoring a new Society
book, "Adventures in Ocean Exploration," for release in April 2001.
Ballard, president of the Institute for Exploration in Mystic, Conn.,
has made many significant underwater discoveries in his career. He is
best known for finding the Titanic in 1985, and has tracked down numerous
other significant shipwrecks, including the German battleship Bismarck,
the lost fleet of Guadalcanal, and the U.S. aircraft carrier Yorktown,
sunk in the Battle of Midway. His most recent discoveries include finds
of sunken remains of ships along ancient Mediterranean trade routes and
of two ancient Phoenician ships off Israel, the oldest shipwrecks ever
found in deep water.
In addition to the National Geographic Society, supporters of the Black
Sea expedition include the U.S. Navy's Office of Naval Research, the National
Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and the J.M. Kaplan Fund.
Expedition participants come from the Institute for Exploration, Woods
Hole Oceanographic Institution, Marr Vessel Management Ltd., Woods Hole
Marine Systems Inc., the University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology
and Anthropology, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and the Institute
of Nautical Archaeology.
"Faith and Geology" (The
Wanderer, September 7, 2000)
Excerpt from article by Peter Wilders regarding new evidence discrediting
evolutionary theory
...The case for evolution of the species rests, therefore, upon: (1)
the sedimentary strata having been accurately dated (the strata are used
to date the fossils); (2) the assumed generic relations between fossils
of different species being correct; (3) confirmation by radiometric dating
of fossils.
Sedimentary strata
Until recently, the principles governing the formation of strata had
not been tested in the laboratory. The basic principles of superposition,
continuity, and original horizontality were formulated by Nicholas Stenon
in the 17 th century. They were subsequently used in the construction
of the geological time scale. The key principle, that of superposition,
because of its apparent simplicity, was never question. It stated that
any strata was younger that the one underneath it and older than the one
on top. How could anything so obvious be doubted?
When the illustrious pioneers of geology such as James Hutton and Charles
Lyell examined stratified geological formations hundreds of meters high,
there was no reason not to interpret the successive strata in terms of
the principle of superposition. It seemed logical that strata, anywhere
in the formation, should follow the principle of the lower being older
than the higher. When the aforementioned basic principles were eventually
put to the test in the 1990's (Guy Berthault, Geological dating Principles
Questioned, Fusion, May/June 2000), the experimental results disagreed
entirely with Nicholas Stenon's, Hutton's, and Lyell's interpretation.
The experiments showed that in the presence of a water current, none
of the principles of stratigraphy, including superposition, applied. Geological
interpretation stand or fall by the peer-viewed results of laboratory
experiments. In this case, the interpretation of Stenon, passed on to
succeeding generations of geologists, has fallen. The only criticism from
a minority of geologists is that laboratory experiments cannot be extrapolated
to explain natural geological formations in the field. The scientific
response is that the laws of mechanics governing sediments and fluids
are universal. They apply just as much in the laboratory flume as in the
oceans and seas. The article in the scientific journal Fusion gives examples.
It should be explained that 95% or more of sedimentary rocks were originally
formed under water. This fact is attested by the ubiquity of marine fossils
in such rocks.
Stenon and his successors were, of course, quite aware of the mainly
marine, or ocean, environment in which sediments were deposited, yet had
overlooked the effect of water currents. Stenon's principle of superposition
required completely current-free water. For it to apply, the particles
of sediments concerned, such as sandstone, limestone, and clay, would
have had to fall vertically, but gently (so as not to create a current)
into the water from an unknown source above.
In reality, however, sediments are eroded, transported, and deposited
by means of current. Stratification and lamination experiments, as published
by the Geological Society (1993) and the Academy of Sciences (1986, 1988)
in France, demonstrate how the action of water currents on sediments cause
the constituent particles to segregate according to size. As a result,
each stratum tends to be composed of the same type of sediment. In transgression
conditions, whereby the sea water rises, sediments are eroded and transported
by fast-flowing currents. As the veolocity of current slows, the large
particles drop out, next, the less large ones, and finally, when the water
level reaches its maximum, and the current speed is reduced to nil, the
fine particles deposit.
The resultant bed of fine sediments contains particles which were carried
by the current until the velocity was sufficiently slow for them to deposit.
The larger sized particles in the bed below could have been eroded at
the same time as the finer particles in the upper bed. Both beds, apparently
successively deposited, have sediments of the same date of erosion.
It follows that the principle of superposition is invalidated because
the lower bed cannot be said to be older than the upper bed. The term
principle in the science of stratigraphy implies universal application
in all normal conditions. This is clearly not the case for successive
superposition of strata which does not take place in moving water. It
cannot be said, therefore, that the sedimentary strata, and therefore
the fossils in them, have been accurately dated.
Generic Relationships between Fossils
The Second condition necessary to validate evolutionary theory is that
the assumption of generic relationships between fossils of different species
is correct. Phylogenetic trees are constructed on the assumption that
organisms in lower strata are ancestral to those higher up. The assumption
of evolutionary links between fossils in lower and higher strata depends
upon the validity of the principle of superposition of strata. This principle
having been used to date both the strata and the fossils they contain,
the fossils in lower strata were considered to be older than the fossils
in higher strata. As explained above this principle has been experimentally
refuted, and assumptions based upon it of generic relationships between
fossils, therefore, have no value.
Radiometric Dating
Radiometric dating, long held as the means of confirming ages calculated
by stratigraphy, is now being seriously questioned (ibid. Guy Berthault).
It has been discovered that historically dated eruptions have been given
ages of hundreds of thousands of years by radiometric dating. For example,
the 1986 eruption of Mt. St. Helens, according to radioisotope dating,
took place between 350,000 and 2,8000,000 years ago. There are many other
similar discordant radiometric dates.
As with strata dating, radiometric dating is based upon a number of
unproved assumptions. Take the potassium-argon method as an example. Radioactive
potassium decays to the non-radioactive daughter product argon gas. The
freshly erupted lava is assumed to contain radioactive potassium only.
All the residual argon is thought to have been evacuated as the liquid
lava cooled and transformed into crystal. The extraordinary great ages
given for the very young lave from Mt. St. Helens is due to the simple
fact that argon gas continued to exist in the lava after the lava had
hardened. The false assumption led to lava less than 20 years old being
given an age of millions of years. The final requirement of evolution
theory, the reliability of radiometric dating, is also not fulfilled....
This essay is published in the book: Not By Bread Alone by Robert
A. Sungenis (Queenship Publishing, PO Box 220, Goleta, CA 93116, 800-647-9882)
A Study on the Genealogies of Genesis
James Ussher (1581-1656), a Reformed theologian, was one of the first
to propose a systematic chronological analysis of the genealogies of Genesis
5 and 11. His proposed date for the creation of Adam was 4004 BC. Ussher's
dating was based on the premise that the genealogical formula of "A begat
B" is always a father-son relationship. This theory received wide notoriety,
since it was eventually published in the margins of the King James Bible.
Despite the severe distortions of other biblical texts, Ussher's became
the prevailing view in the post-Reformation period. However, one of the
most glaring distortions of Ussher's father-son chronology was the assigning
of 230 years as Israel's time in Egypt, whereas Scripture is specific
of a 430 year period, to the very day (Exodus 12:40; Galatians 3:17).
Moreover, Ussher's chronology resulted in some of the antediluvian personages
of Genesis 5, and many of the post-diluvians of Genesis 11, outliving
their great-grandsons, some still existing during the time of Abraham,
as well as some being present with Noah's family on the ark, in contradiction
of Genesis 7:7 and 1 Peter 3:20.
Biblical chronologists have discovered that the genealogies of Genesis
5 and 11 are not meant to be understood as a continual line of father-son
relationships. The formula "A begat B" very likely means that several
generations are included between A and B. The first indication that such
an understanding is expected is in the comparison of Luke 3:36 with Genesis
11:12-13. While Genesis 11 speaks as if Arphaxad comes immediately before
Shelach, Luke's account places "Cainan" between Arphaxad and Shelach,
proving that the genealogy of Genesis 11:12-13 is not a father-son relationship.(1)
Rather, Arphaxad is the ancestor of Shelach. Since the remaining names
of Genesis 11 follow the same pattern (that is, "A lived X years and begat
B; after he begat B, he lived Y years, and begat other sons and daughters"),
this leads us to postulate that all of them, with few exceptions, are
ancestral relationships. The same, of course, would be true of the genealogy
of Genesis 5. This would mean that "A begat B" refers to A begetting the
ancestor of B, not begetting his immediate son. In the case of "Arphaxad
begat Shelach," this would mean that Arphaxad begat the ancestor of Shelach,
either his father, grandfather, great-grandfather, or some other ancestor.
We can also surmise that the "begat" formula does not necessarily mean
that Arphaxad was the father of Cainan. Since Luke's genealogy is not
specific, Arphaxad may have been the ancestor of Cainan.
Another indication that biblical genealogies are not exclusively father-son
relationships is the comparison of Matthew's genealogy with that of the
Chronicler. First, Matthew 1:8-9 states, "and Jehoram begat Uzziah, Uzziah
begat Jotham." However, 1 Chronicles 3:11-12 includes "Ahaziah, Joash,
Amaziah" between Jehoram and Jotham, showing that in Matthew's genealogy,
Jehoram was not the immediate father of Jotham but an ancestor. (2)
Second, Matthew 1:11 states "Josiah begat Jeconiah," but 1 Chronicles
3:16 includes "Jehoiakim" between Josiah and Jeconiah, thus we know that
Josiah was not the immediate father of Jeconiah. (3) Third, Matthew
skipped the names of Zerubbabel's sons, Meshullam or Hannaniah from 1
Chronicles 3:19 and went to the ancestor Abiud of either of the two sons
(Matthew 1:13). This allowed Matthew to include only nine names between
Zerubbabel and Joseph, names that do not appear in the Chronicler's genealogy
or in accounts of Ezra-Nehemiah and thus may be the product of tradition.
Matthew could structure his genealogy in this way since the word "begat"
does not necessarily refer to a father-son relationship. (4) In
fact, Matthew intended to limit the genealogy to three sections of 14
names, amounting to 42 names. He did this not only by leaving out the
aforementioned names from 1 Chronicles, but also by using Jeconiah's name
twice (once in the first triplet of fourteen in verse 11; another in the
second triplet of fourteen in verse 12). The number 42 is important to
Matthew, since it corresponds to the use of 42 encampments of Israel through
the desert (Numbers 33:5-49) and the 42 months or 1260 days of Revelation
11:2, 3; 12:6; 13:5, which symbolically refers to the New Covenant period
from the cross to the second coming of Christ (Hebrews 9:28).
In the same genre as Matthew, Luke was not interested in a precise recounting
of father-son relationships, but in arriving at precisely 77 names from
"Jesus" in Luke 3:23 to "God" in Luke 3:38, since 7 is the number of perfection
in biblical numerology, and more specifically, the number of the sabbath
as well as the covenant. Jesus, the "Second Adam" (1 Corinthians 15:45)
established the New Covenant, which replaced the Old Covenant of the First
Adam (cf. Hosea 6:7) and provided the eschatological sabbath rest (Hebrews
4:3-11). Moreover, since Cainan's name does not appear in any other Hebrew
genealogies (1 Chronicles 1:18-24), Luke must have included his name based
on the tradition from the Septuagint. It is probably the same tradition
from which Luke extracted the genealogical names from Heli (Luke 3:23)
to Mattatha (Luke 3:31), since none of these 39 names appear in the genealogies
of the Hebrew Chronicles. (5)
The genealogies of Genesis 5 and 11 also eliminate names, but for a
different reason than Matthew and Luke. The intent of Genesis is to give
an accurate and literal calendar of history, which is why the accounting
of the years between personages is so meticulous and formulaic. The only
time we can be sure that Genesis 5 and 11 are referring to father-son
relationships is when they specify such, usually by noting the father
giving a name to his immediate son. (6) This phrase appears in
Genesis 5:3 between Adam and Seth ("and he called his name Seth"); in
Genesis 4:26 between Seth and Enosh ("And Seth also had a son, and he
called his name Enosh"); and in Genesis 5:29 between Lamech and Noah ("and
called his name Noah"). The only specific instance of a father/son relationship
in which the father is not said to name the son is between Noah and Shem,
yet we know that Shem was the immediate son of Noah since Shem entered
the ark with him (Genesis 7:13). In all other instances where the word
"begat" appears in Genesis 5 and 11, there is no proof that it is referring
to father-son relationships. (7)
The Biblical Calendar of History
The ancestral calendar works as follows: As Genesis 11:12 states that
"Arphaxad lived 35 years and begat Shelach," it means that when Arphaxad
was 35, the ancestor of Shelach was born, not Shelach. The ancestor of
Shelach is Arphaxad's son, but the son is not named since Arphaxad still
serves as the calendar marker, and will serve so until his death. From
Luke 3:36 we know Cainan is included somewhere in this ancestral line,
although we cannot assume Luke used a father-son genealogy, and in fact,
he probably did not. (8) In any case, Arphaxad is not the father
of Shelach, though he is said to "beget" Shelach. Next, Genesis 11:13,
states that Arphaxad lived 403 years after he begat Shelach. This means
Arphaxad lived 430 years after he begat Shelach's ancestor, not Shelach
himself.
In this way, Arphaxad serves as the calendar marker for his generation.
It would be the same as when we reference our years as "Anno Domini" ("In
the year of Our Lord" or "A.D."). When Arphaxad was alive, the calendar
would have recorded: "In the years of Arphaxad," so that everyone could
know where in the chronology of history they existed. (9) When
Arphaxad died, the next calendar marker was chosen, in this case, Shelach.
To perpetuate the calendar without confusion or distortion, the new calendar
marker, who was born in the same year the previous calendar marker died,
was chosen. Thus the year Shelach was born was the year Arphaxad died.
The calendar then read "In the years of Shelach" for as long as Shelach
lived. So that there was a sufficient pool of ancestors from which to
choose the subsequent calendar marker, the text specifies that each marker
"begat other sons and daughters." Similar to the begetting of the subsequent
calendar marker, the "sons and daughters" included persons from his subsequent
generations, such as grandsons, great-grandsons, and so on. A period of
hundreds of years between calendar markers would produce a sufficient
pool from which to choose an ancestor born in the year the previous calendar
marker died. In this way, there would be no overlap in the calendar. (10)
The import of this ancestral calendar is that there is precisely 438
years (35 + 403 = 438) between Arphaxad and Shelach, not 35, as was assumed
by Ussher. Such a calculation would extend the genealogical timetable
of both Genesis 5 and Genesis 11 into many thousands of years. The genealogy
of Genesis 5, which contains seven calendar markers that we assume were
not father-son relationships (i.e., Enosh, Kenan, Mahalalel, Jared, Enoch,
Methuselah, Lamech), results in approximately 4,700 years of time. If
we add the years between Adam, Seth and Enosh; and between Lamech and
Noah, there are approximately 6,000 years between the creation of Adam
and the Flood.
The nine calendar markers in Genesis 11 (Shem, Arphaxad, Shelach, Eber,
Peleg, Reu, Serug, Nahor, Terah), in addition to the years between Noah
and Shem and the years between Terah and Abraham (whom we know are father-son
relations; Genesis 5:32; 11:26), amounts to approximately 3,000 years.
This means the Flood occurred around 5000 B.C., and creation about 11,000
B.C., since it is known that Abraham lived around the year 2,000 B.C.
(11)
Endnotes:
1) The Nestle-Aland Greek text, Novum Testamentum Graece, 1898; The
Greek New Testament, eds. Aland, Black, Martini, Metzger & Wikgren, 3rd
ed, 1975, as well as other critical texts, report no textual variations
in µ ("of Cainam"), except that the Novum Testamentum Graece notes that
the Koine and Caesarean texts render it ("Cainan"), whereas a "probable"
reading of papyrus 75 (P75) and codex Bazae Cantabrigiensis contain µ.
The Septuagint contains the following for Genesis 11:11-13: "And Arphaxad
lived 135 years and begot Cainan. And Arphaxad lived after he begot Cainan
400 years [Alexandrine text has 430 years], and he begot other sons and
daughters. And Cainan lived 130 years and begot Sala [Shelach]; and Cainan
lived 330 years after he begot Sala, and he begot other sons and daughters."
The discrepancy between the Hebrew Masoretic text and the Greek Septuagint
is also evident in Genesis 10:24. The Hebrew renders it: "And Arphaxad
begot Shelach," while the LXX renders it: "And Arphaxad begot Cainan,
and Cainan begot Sala." It is clear that Luke is following the LXX tradition.
Although the LXX is not inspired, and therefore not inerrant, Luke 3:36,
which adds Cainan, is inerrant. This means that the Hebrew text, which
is also inspired and inerrant, cannot, under any circumstances, be regarding
Arphaxad as the father of Shelach.
2) "Azariah" of 1 Chronicles 3:12 may be the Uzziah of Matthew 1:9 (cf.,
2 Chronicles 27:2; Isaiah 7:1).
3) Some Bible versions, such as the NIV, have "Jehoiachin," which is
a variant of Jeconiah.
4) We are using the word "begat" to feature the ambiguity of the Greek
(the aorist, indicative of , which is the normal word for "begotten" or
"born," e.g., Matthew 1:20; Acts 7:8; Hebrews 1:5) in place of the NIV's
specific yet uncertain "father of."
5) The significance of Luke placing Cainan between Arphaxad and Shelach
in Luke 3:36, as well as Matthew's elimination of genealogical names,
becomes increasingly important for our study, since before their writing,
no one could prove that any portion of the Genesis genealogies were ancestral
relationships as opposed to father-son relationships. Various rabbis of
Israel, without the benefit of the gospel's commentary, concluded that
all the genealogies were father-son relationships, which resulted in placing
Seth both on Noah's ark and assuming the identity of Melchizedek in the
time of Abraham. Not only does the possibility of ancestral genealogies
in Genesis curtail such placement of Seth's life, but 1 Peter 3:20 specifies
that there were only eight persons on Noah's ark (cf., Genesis 7:7, 13;
8:16, 18: Noah, his wife, his three sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, and their
three wives, respectively), which obviously eliminates Seth as a possibility.
Since the rabbis did not have the privilege of using the New Testament
to interpret the Old Testament, erroneous chronologies persisted in Judaism.
6) The Hebrew is . ("and called his name").
7) The Hebrew of "begat" is ("yalad"), which, similar to the Greek ,
only refers to "bring forth," which may or may not include a father-son
relationship. The only other possible exception is Genesis 10:25, which
states: "Two sons were born to Eber; the name of one was Peleg, for in
his days the earth was divided; and his brother's name was Joktan." However,
"sons" (Hebrew: ) does not necessarily refer to an immediate son of a
father, as is evident in such passages as Genesis 10:31. The fact that
Eber is not said to "name" his sons Peleg and Joktan also suggests that
he was not their immediate father.
8) Luke does not use the wording "Arphaxad was the father of Cainan,"
rather, each of Luke's genealogical entries uses the simple genitive of
possession, e.g., "of Cainan, of Aphaxad" (Greek: µ ), showing only that
Arphaxad and Cainan are related, but not necessarily father and son.
9) Notice, for example, how years of passage are referenced as coincident
with the life span of Noah: Genesis 7:6: "Noah was 600 years old when
the flood waters came on the earth." Notice in Genesis 7:11 the language
of an identical calendar as we keep today: "In the 600th year of Noah's
life, on the 17th day of the 2nd month." Genesis 8:13 follows: "By the
1st day of the 1st month of Noah's 601st year, the water had dried up
from the earth." The meticulous chronological schedule is firm evidence
of an existing calendar.
10) To help conceive of the large ancestral pool created by the passing
of generations, Numbers 3:27-30 records "the families of the sons of Kohath"
as resulting in a fifth generation of people from Kohath numbering 8,600.
Thus, a sufficient ancestral pool would have been available to choose
a child born in the year an ancestral calendar marker died. According
to Exodus 6:16-20, Kohath is in the calendrical genealogical line of Levi
(lived 130 years); Kohath (lived 133 years); Amram (lived 137 years);
Aaron (who, according to Exodus 7:7, was 83 years old at the time of the
Exodus). Adding these together gives 483 years. If we subtract 53 years
of this total to account for Levi (the third son of Jacob) being with
Jacob before their entrance into Egypt, the total is 430 years, which
agrees with Exodus 12:40's 430 years as the total time Israel remained
in Egypt. Thus, Kohath died 220 years before the Exodus (137 + 83 = 220),
allowing for the accumulation of 8,600 descendants. I am indebted to Harold
Camping for some of the ideas presented here.
11) This coincides with the recent proposition from U.S. geophysicists,
William Ryan and Walter Pittman, who estimate that the Noachic Flood took
place approximately 7,600 years ago, bringing the date to 5,600 B.C. Ryan's
and Pittman's thesis, titled, "The Universal Deluge" was exhibited in
1999 in Trent's Museum of Natural History. Accordingly, an earth of approximately
10,000 to 15,000 years old agrees with much current scientific evidence
on a number of fronts. Particularly significant is the amount of inorganic
salts deposited in the oceans from land erosion, which according to the
most recent calculations from seismic echoing, accounts for a very young
earth. (Sources: Ewing, Maurice, "New Discoveries on the Mid-Atlantic
Ridge," National Geographic Magazine, Nov. 1949; Ewing, John, "North Pacific
Sediment Layers Measured by Seismic Profiling," in The Crust and Upper
Mantle of the Pacific Area, 1968; Larson, Roger and Spiers, Fred, "East
Pacific Rise Crest, a Near Bottom Geophysical Profile," in Science, Jan.
1969; Hurley, Patrick, "The Confirmation of Continental Drift," Scientific
American, April 1968; Kuenen, H. "Geological Conditions of Sedimentation,"
Chemical Oceanography, 1965.
Robert Sungenis
Catholic Apologetics International
March 18, 2001