R. Sungenis: There is something interesting you need to know about Chrysostom's interpretation of Malachi 4:5. He makes a blatant error in basing his conclusion of the supposition that it reads "Elijah the Tishbite." This is not correct.

Not knowing Hebrew, Chrysostom and Augustine often end up in unsupported exegesis by relying only on the LXX. Jerome, who knew Hebrew, did not translate Malachi 4:5 as "the Tishbite."

Neither the original Hebrew, nor the Latin Vulgate, had "the Tishbite" added to Elijah. The Hebrew reads ELIYAH HANABIYA (that is, "Elijah the prophet"). The Latin Vulgate reads "Heliam prophetam," while the Douay-Rheims reads "Elias the prophet." There are no Hebrew textual variants with any other reading. Chrysostom is getting his reading from the LXX which has "Elion ton Thesbiten," but this is obviously a mere Jewish interpretation of the passage, not the inspired text. In fact, this may have been the reason the Jews were confused regarding the real nature of Elijah's appearance, and missed his identity being fulfilled in John the Baptist (cf., Matt 16:14; 17:10). Obviously, if they were looking for the "Tishbite" instead of John the Baptist, they would have been mislead by their own translation of the Hebrew text, and apparently so was Chrysostom. If he can make such an error with the text, then we certainly can't put much stock in is conclusions about anything else regarding Elijah's appearance.

Mark: Just as a P.S. to my previous reply, I want to address this specific issue. Chrysostom and Augsutine were not "confused" about the return of Elijah because of their reliance on the LXX. They looked for a return of Elijah in the flesh because Jewish tradition had long predicted it.

R. Sungenis: How does "Jewish tradition" establish Catholic belief? The "Jewish tradition" also believed that the Messiah would not come as a suffering servant but as a conquering king. Are you saying that we should have paid attention to that "tradition" and perhaps denied that the babe in Bethlehem actually was the Messiah? I don't think so. Moreover, Ott already told you that the idea of Elijah coming-again was from "Jewry," yet he put no stock in that interpretation.

Mark: Elijah (and Enoch) never physically died, but were assumed into heaven bodily. Thus, many predicted their return.

R. Sungenis: The problem here, Mark, is that you are trying to make their translation into heaven to be a cause and effect matter for their return to earth, but that is at best unprovable.

Mark: The "two witnesses" of Revelations 11 have traditionally been understood to be Enoch and Elijah.

R. Sungenis: Only by a relatively few. Moreover, many of them leave out Enoch, as I have noted above.

Mark: Our Lord implies in Matthew 17:11-12 that there will be two comings of Elijah - a coming of the actual at the end of time to "restore all things", but a figurative coming of Elijah in spirit in the form of John the Baptist. Cornelius a Lapide calls it a "Calvinist error" to believe that verses 11 and 12 both refer to John the Baptist.

R. Sungenis: Then I suppose Lapide would accuse Ludwig Ott of holding to a "Calvinist error."

Mark: Furthermore, awareness of the Hebrew text is no proof of accuracy. The LXX has an older textual tradition than the Masoretic text and many of the earlier Hebrew texts. The Church has always recognized the value of the Septuagint. It remains the official Old Testament text of the Greek Church, and the oldest Latin text, the vetus Itala, was a direct translation of the Septuagint. Jerome's Vulgate borrowed from Hebrew texts to correct some errors in the Vetus Itala, but in other cases it was the Hebrew texts that were in error.

R. Sungenis: I'm afraid you have it exactly backwards, Mark. The Hebrew was the originally inspired text, meticulously copied by the Jews in Palestine, and that's the reason we have a Masoretic text that is as good as it is. I suggest you read Ernst Wurthwein's book The Text of the Old Testament. Here's one section of his chapter on the comparison of the Septuagint to the Masoretic Text: "...today we recognize that the LXX neither was nor was intended to be a precise scholarly translation. Many other factors and interests played a part in its formation. An uncritical use of it which ignores these factors can only lead to false conclusions. In the following paragraphs a few basic considerations are noted, with the reminder that the LXX differs so greatly from book to book that no generalizations can be made with reservations. (a) If we are tempted to prefer the LXX to the Masoretic text as an older witness to the text, we should recall the unevenness of its own textual tradition. Whereas the consonantal text of the Masoretic Text has remained remarkably constant since the second century, the Septuagint manuscripts even centuries later have widely divergent texts..." (pp. 63-64).

The rest of the chapter adds much more information than I can put here.

In any case, the official translation of the Catholic Church, which resides only in the Latin Vulgate, does not have "Thesbite," rather, it has "prophet," just as the Hebrew text does, so whatever your opinion about the LXX, it has been trumped by the Church's official translation, and that is what I will go by.

Mark: A most important example is the LXX use of "parthenos" (virgin) in Isaiah 7:14 where the hebrew texts have "almah" (young woman). Was St. Matthew, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrong when he quoted the "inaccurate" Septuagint rather than the "accurate" Hebrew in applying this prophecy to the virgin birth of Our Lord?

R. Sungenis: This is quite an elementary mistake, Mark. The word almah appears seven times in the Hebrew Old Testament (cf., Gn 24:43; Ex 2:8; Ps 68:25; Pr 30:19; Sg 1:3; 6:8; Is 7:14). None of the passages suggest that almah refers to a woman who is married or has had sexual relations. Conversely, there are explicit indications that almah refers to an unmarried woman who has had no sexual relations. First, in Gn 24:43, almah is used to refer to Rebecca before she is married to Isaac. Yet in the same context (Gn 24:16), Rebecca is referred to as bethulah ("An exceeding beautiful maid, a virgin, and not known to man..."). This interchange of terms means that almah could be interchanged with bethulah, and was thus understood to designate a virgin. In addition, Rebecca is called a "maid" in the same passage (Gn 24:16), from the Hebrew word naarah which, similar to almah, refers in Hebrew to a young woman, but also a virgin (see the use of naarah in Dt 22:15-29 in which the husband suspects his wife was not a virgin when they married). Identical to the interchange of almah and bethulah evident in Gn 24:16, 43, in Dt 22:23, 28; Jg 21:12; 1Kg 1:2; Es 2:3 naarah and bethulah are interchanged. Added to these is the use of bethulah in Ex 22:16, which, in a similar context to that of Dt 22, also refers to virginity before marriage.

The usage of almah in Pr 30:19 also refers to a virgin. In this passage, "the way of a man with a maid (almah)," who is assumed to be a virgin since she is unmarried, is contrasted in the next verse, Pr 30:20, with an "adulterous woman (isha)" who is understood as married but having sexual relations with other men. The usage of almah in Sg 1:3 leads to the same conclusion, since in the context the maidens are attracted to the loving man of Solomon's Song, implying they are refraining from sexual relations with him so that the loving man can be intimate with his one and only lover. The above passages also show that almah refers to more than identifying a girl or young woman. Almah has procreative overtones, referring in the main to a young woman who has the potential of engaging in sexual relations but who has refrained for one reason or another. This connotation, of course, would also fit the Blessed Virgin Mary who, tradition holds, took a vow of celibacy. The above analysis is confirmed by the fact that the LXX translates the Hebrew almah with the Greek parthenos ("virgin") in both Gn 24:43 and Is 7:14, showing that the Alexandrian Jews understood the latter term to be identical with the former. Moreover, the LXX rendering includes the Greek article hee in the phrase hee parthenos) as does Matthew, following the article cha in the Hebrew of Is 7:14 cha-almah. Hence, the "sign" is not merely "a virgin," that is, she is not any young woman who shall conceive by normal means, but "the virgin." The stature engendered by the article coincides with the testimony of the greatness of her offspring (cf., Mc 5:3; Is 8:8; 9:5-6; 11:1-10).

Mark: The point I am trying to make is that, regardless of whether Malachi originally wrote "Elijah the Tishbite" or "Elijah the prophet", the Holy Spirit has often used the LX translations and the interpretive traditions of the Church to draw deeper meaning out of the passages than a clinical, literal analysis of the texts would suggest. If we are to really understand what this passage, or any other passage of Scripture, means in a prophetic sense, we have to go beyond parsing the Greek and Hebrew and study how the text has been received and understood in the tradition of the Church.

R. Sungenis: The Holy Spirit didn't inspire the LXX, Mark, and neither did He inspire the Jewish interpretation of the passage. As for the "tradition of the Church," the fact remains that Chrysostom did not know Hebrew, and therefore couldn't even know what the original said. Jerome, which is the one key person representing our "tradition" in regards to judgments about the Hebrew and Greek texts, chose the word "prophet" and rejected the word "Thesbite." THAT is our tradition, Mark, since every other person who followed in Church history used the Vulgate and read "Heliam prophetam" not "Elion ton Thesbiten."

Mark: This is a general difficulty I have with your exegesis of Romans 11:25-27: you are very keen to show that the grammatical structure of the passage could support your interpretation of the text as denying that it refers to future end times events. But the question is not simply what the grammatical structure of the Greek suggests, but how the text is understood according to the analogia fidei.

R. Sungenis: As I explained quite thoroughly above in the analysis of all the "analogy of faith" your brought forward, it is a best equivocal.

Mark: When read in the context of passages like Matthew 17:11 (the future coming of Elijah), Matthew 23:39 (future recognition of the crucified Christ by the Jews), Revelations 11 (the two witnesses, hinting at Elijah and Enoch), and in the context of the Church's understanding of the passage, it has clearly been understood prophetically to refer to a future conversion of the Jews.

R. Sungenis: Matthew 17:11 is not to be interpreted as you assert according to Ott, the very witness you brought forward for your own view. As for Mt 23:39, Lapide merely said it was "possible" to refer to the Jews in the future, not definite. As for Apocalypse 11, the half dozen citations to which you appealed were equivocal as to whether Enoch was represented. On top of all that, not one of the witnesses ever provide exegesis of the passages, nor cited early patristic support for their interpretation, nor showed that the apostolic tradition demanded their interpretation. If these are the only passages of Scripture you have, the result is you have a weak case at best, since there is no Scripture that makes an explicit and undeniable claim that there will be a mass conversion of Jews at the end of time. As I said in my last post, Apoc 1:7 shows the Jews "wailing" at Christ's return, not being joyful.

Mark: That is why I put more "stock" in St. Augustine and St. John Chrysostom's exegesis according to the Church's traditional understanding than I do in your exegesis based on strict attention to the Greek text.

R. Sungenis: Neither Augustine nor Chrysostom "exegeted" Romans 11:25-26. They simply referred to the text. Even at that, Augustine's view is equivocal. As for my "exegesis based on strict attention to the Greek text," you can dismiss it if you wish, Mark, but the Greek text is the inspired and inerrant word of God. Unless you can show a viable and provable alternative to the Greek text, then I'm afraid you don't have much of a case.

One final note, Mark, is that when it comes to prophecy, there really is no one view espoused by the Church. That is precisely why you see such a divergence of opinion and equivocation among even the witnesses you bring forward.

Nevertheless, a universal conversion would simply be totally adverse to everything God has ever done with regard to Jews and Gentiles. Ever since the beginning of time, there have only been a percentage of the world's people who have sought and remained with the Lord. From Abel and Noah, to the time Israel entered Canaan when only two of the original group that left Egypt remained faithful, to the time of David, there was only a remnant of Jews who believed, even in their glory years. God simply does not do "universal" conversions. He does not coerce people to believe in Him on massive scales or somehow bend the wills of all a particular people in spite of their obstinance. That has never been His way. The constant theme in Scripture is that only a remnant of people will turn to Him out of the free will God gave them.

St. Paul says the same of the Jews in Romans 11:23. He says: "And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again."

Notice that their conversion is based on "IF they do not continue in their unbelief" God will graft them in. It is not that God somehow sprinkles some pixie dust on them so that all their wills are irresistibly drawn to God at some future time. Rather, the constant message of Scripture is that God is saving Jews who bend the knee to Him now, and has always been doing so, according to His promise to Abraham, and the sum total of all those will be the "all Israel" who is saved.

Mark 3: First, Robert, I want to thank you for this dialogue. I am going to suggest a few ways in which we may be able to narrow our differences and come to a consensus. Then I would like to propose taking a step back and looking at the question of the relationship of the Church and the Jewish people in a broader context.

R. Sungenis 2: Mark, I understand why you might find Ott supporting your view, but let's read what he says.

On page 486 he writes:

"The conversion of the Jews: In Rom. 11:25-32, St. Paul reveals 'the mystery' : When the fullness, that is the number ordained by God, of the Gentiles has entered the kingdom of God 'all Israel' will be converted and saved. There is question of a morally universal conversion of the Jews."

First, Ott is saying nothing different than what I have said. If you read my essay carefully, I maintain that "all Israel" will be saved when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Second, Ott offers no exegesis of the text, so we don't know in which direction he is going. As I explained by using the context of Romans 11, God has been saving Jews, and will continue to save Jews, until the end of time. The sum total of all those Jews is "all Israel," and thus it can be safely said, as God promised to Abraham, that all Israel will be saved, but whether this will be a massive conversion in the future is nowhere taught in Scripture, nor does Ott himself say so.

In fact, Ott says just the opposite. He says, "There is question of a morally universal conversion of the Jews." In other words, he knows that there are people, such as yourself, who teach there will be a universal conversion, but to Ott that view is at best a "question."

Mark 3: Yes, you do say "'all Israel' will be saved when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in," but you mean by this something quite different from what the Church has historically understood. You assert that "all Israel" means those Jews who are being converted at the present time, making a grammatical argument as to why "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" and "and so all Israel will be saved" should not be understood to be sequential events. But the witness of the Church's understanding of this passage is that the salvation of all Israel will occur after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Ott is referring to this conversion of the Jews as one of the signs of the Second Coming, so clearly he does mean something different than what you have said. He believes this conversion will occur after the fullness of the Gentiles have come in. The "question" is not when the event will occur, but the scope. Will it simply be a large-scale conversion of the Jews, or a "morally universal one."

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