Romans 11:28: Who Are "The Election"?

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0 #5 2012-02-08 12:18
All the Promises where given to Christ and he is the elect one and we share in His election through participation in Baptism, which is our circumcision. We enter the promiseland by entering into Christ and eating of the Tree of Life, the Body and Blood of Christ.

Election is not individual salvation, nor God looking ahead to see who will believe, but God sending an Ark, Christ, His Body, for us to be apart of, to be saved from the Flood that's coming.

Baptism is election: Chosen "in" Christ, baptised "into" Christ, putting "on" Christ, robed "in" Christ.
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0 #4 2012-02-04 16:50
R. Sungenis: I’ve read them, David. You make the same mistakes in them that you do here – you fail to make the Israel v. Israel distinction, and especially where it is needed most. Also your attempt to commandeer para. 1963 of the Catechism to prove that the Jews are still the chosen people is certainly erroneous, since you would need to prove that the Jews in the Old Testament didn’t use the law as a discloser of sin before you start saying that the only possible interpretation of 1963 is that it refers to Jews today who use the law as a discloser. Paul is clear in Gal 4 that the Law was a tutor to the Jew in the OLD TESTAMENT, not the New, and thus your interpretation of para 1963 is anachronistic. Also, your attempt to use Lumen Gentium 16 (“in view of the divine choice, they are a people most dear for the sake of the fathers, for the gifts of God are without repentance”) suffers from a similar presumption since LG 16 doesn’t define what it means by its terms (e.g., “divine choice,” “a people,” “gifts”). It merely reiterates the language of Romans 11:28-29, and then you read into that language what you have already preconceived about the Jews. (Of course, much of “magisterial” comments on Romans 11 suffers from the same problem – there is no exegesis of the text; there is merely a stringing together of statements that Paul wrote).
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0 #3 2012-02-04 16:47
R. Sungenis: Well, David, it doesn’t surprise me that we agree on the basic parameters. You and I concur on each point you made above. The problem is not between the Church and Israel in Romans 11 (since I concur with you that it is wrong to replace Israel with the Church). The problem is that you fail to distinguish between Israel and Israel. The whole context of Romans 11 separates Israel from Israel (e.g., vr. 5-10’s remnant v. hardness; vr. 14’s “some” v. the whole; vr. 23’s “belief will graft the Jew back” v. persistent unbelief producing no engrafting). But because you have a bias (which is clearly seen in your other writings) that Israel has a special relationship with God just because it is Jewish (or as Michael Forrest contends, “Jews as Jews have a special relationship with God because of the Old Covenant”), this clouds your interpretation of Paul’s concluding passages. Hence, this causes you to see “the election” as referring to all Jews, i.e., national or ethnic Israel; and in doing so you fail to incorporate the Israel v. Israel distinction Paul has insisted upon in the context, as far back as Romans 9:6. That problem is remedied by seeing “in regards to the Gospel, enemies” as referring to all Jews who are in unbelief; while “in regards to the election, beloved” as referring to Jews who become saved. This is the only way the Israel v. Israel distinction can be maintained. Bottom line: The Jews are not “beloved” because they are Jewish. They are beloved when they become the elect, and Paul already told us how that happens in vrs. 5-7, that is, when a Jew receives grace for salvation and comes out of his unbelief. You, on the other hand, have absolutely nothing in this context or anywhere else in the NT that says Jewishness (national or ethnic) equates with election.
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0 #2 2012-02-03 21:30
Second, I have no idea why he introduced the issue of Zionism. I'm not a Zionist, as I stated in my article "Are You Anti-Semitic?".

I'll be finishing up my neo-geocentrism series, and then perhaps I'll have some time to respond to this article. In the meantime, read the my whole article and see what you think.
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0 #1 2012-02-03 21:29
There were two issues he raised that can be answered quickly:

First, he implied that I believe the word "Israel" refers "exclusively to the ethnic race [sic] of people known as the Jews and/or the national state of Israel..." and that I "oppose interpretations of Scripture that see 'Israel' as symbolically fulfilled in the Church." He's incorrect on both counts. Along with the Popes and St. Paul, I consider this a "both/and" rather than an either/or.

"Israel" can refer both to the Church (spiritual Israel) and to the Jewish people (Israel according to the flesh), depending upon the context. And the context of Romans 11 does not allow "Israel" to be interpreted as "The Church". If you doubt this, try reading it by systematically substituting "the Church" for "Israel" and all pronouns referring to "Israel" and you'll see that the chapter is reduced to nonsense.
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